Talk:Todo List
FOLKS: please don't wedge you posts into other folk's post, this gets messy. Always add your posts below, preferably bottonmost on the page. And don't forget to use signatures, else nobody knows who wrote what. --Marek Möhling 19:41, 20 November 2007 (CET)
Contents
Replying to this page
Those who reply, should cite (if needed) and reply below the post in question with indentation and signature - here's an example:
Once the indentation moved to far to the right (about 6 colons), move to left and start again. --Marek Möhling 18:27, 20 November 2007 (CET)
Project Survey
I hijacked the survey page of Jürgen. I have put it on a page by its own, but may be this should be in the portal page instead? The table I am talking about is PythonProjectsByData. -- Dirk Bonné
- Damn Dirk - you stole my copyrighted survey page! No just kidding ;-) We can link this table later, when we have agreed on the basic hierarchy. --Jürgen 20:33, 20 November 2007 (CET)
- And, I was just going to make a second script to glean the glossary info ;-) --Dirk Bonné 20:49, 20 Nov. 2007 CET
- errmm, done. (by hand) And hey Jürgen, this is not to copy just all the info from your site. But it gives a starting point to work upon. --Dirk Bonné 21:00, 20 Nov. 2007 CET
- Great work Dirk! --Jürgen 21:10, 20 November 2007 (CET)
Licence Model
> Can we have a Creative Commons Contribution Share Alike Licence link on all pages, next to disclaimer?
done, I've put it on top of the page bottom blurb.
Just noticed, that "CC share alike 1.0" was choosen for the wiki content. This license is retired and should not be used for new work. I would propose the following model:
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/
That means, all the content of the wiki, text and pictures and everything else, may be shared under the three following conditions:
- Attribution: You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor (but not in any way that suggests that they endorse you or your use of the work).
- Noncommercial: You may not use this work for commercial purposes.
- Share Alike: If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same or similar license to this one.
Any suggestions? --Jürgen 21:08, 20 November 2007 (CET)
I think this a good choice and the most common one out of the creative licence pool. I'm up for it --DirkS
Sounds good to me --Uipko 09:53, 22 November 2007 (CET)
Its ok for me too, let´s change it, Marek. --Stephan 11:49, 22 November 2007 (CET)
- Can you change this too Stephan? Marek has given you the SysOp rights. --Jürgen 13:03, 22 November 2007 (CET)
- Stephan, Dirk: you need MediaWiki:Lastmodifiedat for this. cf. Special:Allmessages for overview. --Marek Möhling 08:43, 23 November 2007 (CET)
- Changed license to nc-sa 3.0 --DirkS 14:10, 23 Nov 07
rss newsfeed
> Is it worth having an rss newsfeed about wiki changes?
check Special:Recentchanges, it has a feed by default.
I think we should realize it when the wiki has grown and has a good structure. Stephan 11:29, 22 November 2007 (CET)
Wysiwig editor
>> Do people want an wysiwyg editor, or is the powerful wiki language the way to go?
>afaik, wikimedia doesn't offer this yet, though they have it on the list. I could implement this on my own, but this would be quite a stretch.
>I recommend to stay with standards, so people used to one wiki have no trouble editing in another
I saw this feature mentioned in a comparison somewhere. Lets leave and see how things work out.
A wysiwyg editor would make it easier for the people who aren't used to markup languages. Maybe it doesn't have to be a full blown wysiwig editor, i think buttons for markup like colon etc. would make it a lot easier. --Uipko 19:06, 20 November 2007 (CET)
- wikimedia has an experimental version with wysiwyg support, cf. en:Comparison_of_wiki_software#Features_2. I might install this eventually when I find time, but no promises to do so soon. I'm reluctant to use other than tried and true wikimedia software. However, if most users here decided to use another one (moin moin uses python and has wysiwyg), i'll install that. I recommend to wait till the wikimedia folks get their wysiwyg support from experimental to stable, which will happen in the foreseeable future. --Marek Möhling 19:59, 20 November 2007 (CET)
I meant the inline linking. Sorry if that was confusing. Finally we should certainly store things locally. DirkS
Webspace / Hosting
>> Hosteurope seems to be a good choice. In any way, we need to be
>> careful with webspace. One solution would be that people with
>> personal webspace don't upload the images, and simply link to them.
>> Stephan: could you try this with your "42" page?
> Linking to images instead of showing them inline imo greatly reduces the wiki's (or any webpage's) usability.
> Besides, mediawiki allows for inline inclusion of external images, cf. Test. Unfortunately, as of now, external images
> forgo many of the fancy formatting options you have with files stored locally - check the bottommost image on the test page.
> The mediawiki developers have this issue marked, but not yet solved.
Anyway, as webspace is quite cheap really, I wonder if fussing with external images would make up for the trouble and disadvantages. For instants, I could reprogram wikimedia to allow external images with the complete set of formatting options (i.e. do what the developers have in the pipe), but that should be more work than it's worth. However, I'd prefer you to use external images (tinypic.com is handy) till this is settled.
> So if i'm happy to invest 30€/a into a python domain, could we
> transfer the domain to my name and i recieve the bills instead? If
> thats all it takes, i pay for it - sorted :-)
That would suit me best by far. However, the regular hosteurope (and most other provider's) procedures don't allow for that - he who manages webspace and domain technically receives the bill - you can't split that (except for costly deluxe accounts). I had it planned to check this with hosteurope for possible solutions anyway - it might take some time, though.
- OK, the new webspace is ordered. We will soon be able to have a nice domain and a couple of MB Space for those pretty pictures. --DirkS 14:22, 20 Dec 2007 (CET)
However, it's easy to migrate a wiki to another webspace and/or domain eventually: you need a database dump and to move the image directory.
I've set up an FTP account for the image directory. I propose I mail the access data to somebody who wants to take care about that - Stephan Schöling told me that he'd like to do so - ok by me. I'm reluctant to send the data to the whole group, as many people accessing one account tend to mess things up.
> Once the python database is set up (for now the wiki runs on one of mine), I can grant external access either by
> ODBC (Stephan, can you handle that?), else I can write a script that mails a db dump to selected mail accounts
> (I can invite those interested to gmail accounts for that) daily (or weekly, monthly...).
- Please, lets be more patient in this question. First we should run the wiki here, test everything, decide what to do and then we can talk about details of mooving the database. In my opinion the administraor of the new domain should do this work. If I am the one I will do that. --Stephan 11:53, 21 November 2007 (CET)
> My provider's phpMyAdmin installation doesn't allow for user based access restrictions (presently, there are many databases
> I don't want other folk to manage). So, optionally, I can install a second phpMyAdmin with needed customisation.
> However, the mail script would be the best solution, as it ensures a regular backup secured somewhere else. --Marek Möhling 18:22, 20 November 2007 (CET)
The Email option would be nice. Two or three recipients, Simple and straight forward Backup.
Editing
I noticed that the interlinking to the wikipedia is not possible (example lumbago). At http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Interwiki_linking it is explained how to get it working, but you need database access for that. Can you get this to work? -- Babypython 12:07, 22 November 2007 (CET)
- That's already active:
- If you need more languages, tell me.
- --Marek Möhling 15:15, 22 November 2007 (CET)
- Great Marek! Is it also possible to have articles in different languages, similar to Wikipedia? That would be fantastic! --Jürgen 16:29, 22 November 2007 (CET)
- Stephan, Dirk: you'll need pde:Special:Allmessages, pnl:Special:Allmessages, and pfr:Special:Allmessages to customise the other Wikis eventually. --Marek Möhling 08:44, 23 November 2007 (CET)
- Sorry, that is the first multilaguage Wiki for me. I see 4 different databases now and no chance to bind them, am i right? If yes, i think that is not useful at this time. --Stephan16:26, 23 November 2007 (CET)
- The multilanguage wiki seems to cause trouble. The Project Survey page has disappeared. --Jürgen 16:38, 23 November 2007 (CET)
- I have repaired this. --Stephan 21:10, 23 November 2007 (CET)
- So did I just some minutes ago :-) Anyway, it's working: Python_Projects_Survey. It caused trouble because it had been moved, but that's a trifle.
- You have used Pyton_Projects_Survey instead of Python Project Survey. Be shure to leave away the underlines, cause of the links to this Page, e.g. from the Community portal. --Stephan21:37, 23 November 2007 (CET)
- Spaces get converted to underlines by default. Python_Projects_Survey and Python Projects Survey link the same entry. --Marek Möhling 21:46, 23 November 2007 (CET)
- Isn´t "Python Projects Survey" the article name and "Python_Projects_Survey" the name of the entry in the DB for that article ? The underlines sholdn´t appear in the article name, only in links to the page. --Stephan14:38, 25 November 2007 (CET)
- > I see 4 different databases now and no chance to bind them, am i right ?
- That's arbitrary: separate dbs or one db with tables identified by different prefixes per lang is feasible, I chose the later for now. It doesn't matter for small Wikis, really.
- >Jürgen: Great Marek! Now we have the possibility to write articles in different languages. That is a very useful feature. Is Celtic within the choice?
- Any you like, but it's a fuss every time, as wikimedia software doesn't have multilang support out of the box. I could add that eventually, but not now. I suppose you want Welsh for Rhisiart? That would be metawikipedia:List_of_Wikipedias 65, Welsh, Cymraeg, cy. Please settle to a list with the others and tell me.
- >stephan: If yes, i think that is not useful at this time.
- Technically, I implemented it already, but I'd advise not to fork the project yet, but to concentrate on en.python. However, translating existing en.python entries should be ok.
- Sorry Marek, the db dump has been blocked by the mailinglist server (too big, 150 KB is the limit for postings). Thanks for repairing the wiki (to you or Stephan - whoever). I agree with you that we should concentrate now on a structuring the content. The Welsh was just to make Rhisiart happy ;-) --Jürgen 21:56, 23 November 2007 (CET)
- cf. db1018360-wikidb.sql.zip. --Marek Möhling 23:18, 23 November 2007 (CET)
Domain
I checked my DSL provider 1&1 (United Internet) for a possible subdomain wiki.python-lowracer.de but it is not included in my package. Therefore I leave it up to you. --Jürgen 14:45, 22 November 2007 (CET)
- DSL providers give access to the internet, web space providers care for storage place on remote internet servers. 1&1 packages offer database and subdomains beginning from 4.99. I'll see what I can do. --Marek Möhling 08:15, 23 November 2007 (CET)
- I was mistaken when saying that only 4.99/month would buy you a wiki on your own, that's only true with 1und1.de, where you'd need hosting plan Homepage Perfect to get a database, PHP and subdomains. You'd need subdomains to have, say www.python-lowracer.de and wiki.python-lowracer.de. With hosteurope plan WebPack-M for 2.99 you'd get everything you need except htaccess support. This excludes URLs like python.data.he-hosting.de/pivot - you'd need python.data.he-hosting.de/wiki/pivot. That's a slight en:SEO related drawback, but that shouldn't be a concern here. So that:s the options:
- You keep www.python-lowracer.de with 1und1 and get additionally a hosteurope.de WebPack-M for, say, wiki-python-lowracer.de. Note the hyphen: it's a new domain, not a python-lowracer.de subdomain. At 1und1, you could set up www.python-lowracer.de/wiki redirecting to wiki-python-lowracer.de at hosteurope.
- You upgrade to 1und1 "Homepage Perfect"
- You switch www.python-lowracer.de from 1und1 to hosteurope.de WebPack-M or any other provider that offers PHP, MySQL and subdomains. Changing webspace providers might cause an interruption for some days in extreme cases, however, I'd say mostly it gets unnoticed by visitors. I understand that 1und is you DSL provider, too. That is independent of webspace offered, unless you have a DSL plan that includes a domain and webspace.
- Hello Marek. 1und1 is both my DSL and webspace provider. The .de domain was included in my flatrate package. At the moment I have no intention to change this package. Anyway I think the URL of the wiki is not that important, as it is linked directly from my main page and all the mailing list members will know wherever the wiki could be found. Greets and thanks for the research. --Jürgen 19:52, 3 December 2007 (CET)
Multilanguage Support
The wiki seems repaired now. Though same flaws are still persistent. E.g. the picture on my Userpage is gone and some of the recent changes have disappeared. In case the SysOps decide to carry on with the multilingual wiki, I would propose the following languages:
important ones:
- English
- German
- French
- Dutch
and nice to have:
- Swedish
- Danish
- Cymraeg
Did I miss something? --Jürgen 12:04, 24 November 2007 (CET)
- Yes you did: Useability! Multilanguage is all fine but the way it is implemented is not good (as I understand it). Are we supposed to make parallel versions of the *whole* website then??? I would have prefered that the pages would be available in different languages, and linking to them would not concern language. But now the language is to be choosen by the links present in the pages. What I would prefer is a system that if a particular page is not translated, you'de get the original page. For example if a french guy writes about his project in french then everybody going to his page will see french -until somebody provided a translation page. How it is now is a paralllel french site to the main english site. -- Babypython 13:55, 24 November 2007 (CET)
- > The wiki seems repaired now. Though same flaws are still persistent. E.g.
- The regular way to set up a multilang wiki is to install it with a fresh (ie empty) database and have it filled with content. To do it after it had been started is suboptimal. To prevent any quirks whatsoever when adding multilang would have required very much work and shutting down the wiki for some time. I took a short cut - the ensuing quirks are minor and can be fixed. The wiki was not broken, only some info in the database got mixed up.
- > the picture on my Userpage is gone and some of the recent
- > changes have disappeared.
- I forgot to set some rights after changing paths. You'll have to upload the file again, sorry: Python_P3_mass_distribution.jpg, else you may want an external image.
- > In case the SysOps decide to carry on with the multilingual wiki,
- > I would propose the following languages:
> Are we supposed to make parallel versions of the *whole* website then???
- No, that's optional, I've advised against it.
> What I would prefer is a system that if a particular page is not translated, > you'de get the original page.
Presently, it's done along the standard set by wikipedia, which most users will expect without thinking about it. To tell en.python users that a specific topic has been dealt with only on fr.python, you'd have to set up a stub by writing: "As of yet, this article exists only in French". Else, you're free to write it in French right away, possibly adding somewhere something like: "English translation pending". An article written in a non-English language is certainly better than no article at all.
The multilang support is not a technical issue, it's about conventions how to arrange content. --Marek Möhling 17:05, 24 November 2007 (CET)
Main Page vs. Community Portal
As already mentioned, the content of the two pages should be switched. A good example for a mainpage is here. I propose to copy this design by replacing it with the following topics:
- Theory
- Building
- Riding
- Projects
- Trikes
- Events
The Community Portal should be similar to this, including the different namespace and background color, which refers to meta wiki stuff.
Further, a nice background image would be more inviting than the current setup. Just take some decent material from the python stuff floating in the net until we find something better. I suppose that only sysops can do these changes. Concerning the logo we should run a contest on a dedicated wiki page. --Jürgen 16:41, 29 November 2007 (CET)
- Started the Logo-Contest --Jürgen 18:19, 29 November 2007 (CET)
Help - Can anyone of the sysops please setup the main page? --Jürgen 20:57, 3 December 2007 (CET)
